Dave Paddock 1/5/2021

Mentor, colleague and friend describe former New York State Principal of the year Dave Paddock. We'll examine Dave's career along with his thoughts on school culture, schools suspensions as they relate to New York's new marijuana law and important advice for those approaching retirement age. 

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Welcome, everyone to education matters. This is your host, Wayne Ackles. And I'm incredibly excited today to have my good friend, and mentor, colleague, and all around good human being Dave fatik. I'll let him introduce himself a little bit more in a minute. And this is our first guest. So it's exciting on a lot of fronts that we've got this guest. And so we're going to turn it over for Dave to introduce himself, and then talk a little bit about culture. One of the themes that I mentioned in different times during the podcast so far is culture. And that's something that I come back to in terms of leadership, and talking about, you know, what makes a school, a solid school and a place that kids want to be in culture is such an important part of that. And I can't think of anyone better at establishing culture coming in and helping change school culture than de Paddick. And that's part of the reason he's here today. So I'm going to let Dave talk a little bit about his past experience, you know, what was his experience prior to Fairport? And then we're going to talk about some of the culture building experiences he's had and that'll be the bulk of our show today. Sounds good. Wayne, thank you yeah, so tell us a little bit about your your past it. Most people know you as the the principal from Fairport High School. But you did have prior experience to this. We were building and learning some of those lessons. Want you to tell us a little bit about that prior experience before you got to Fairport? Sure that too? Yeah. Um, you know, I started out playing as a physical education teacher and a coach. And by the time I get to Fairport, 20 years later, 25 years later, I would say to kids, sometimes what, you know, what do you think I taught when I was starting out, and they're always shocked and surprised to hear that I was a Phys. Ed teacher. I don't know what they thought I was. But it was always a really, when I went down, I started out as a phys ed teacher, like my dad was my dad taught phys ed in Fairport, and coach and fair for for many years. So I started out down in Pinyon. When I got out of college, my parents had a house on Keuka Lake. And it was a great place to start out teaching. I taught there for 11 years, coach basketball coach, some soccer, little, a few other things, but taught physical education. And then one year, I was inspired by a colleague who was getting his administrative degree and I thought, well, you know, maybe I should think about that and decided to take some courses at Cortland state to find out if it was something I was interested in. And quite honestly, way when I started out in my administrative coursework, I was thinking that, you know, maybe someday I'll be the Director of Athletics. I opinion, I was happy teaching, there is a great school, a great community, and I was in the athletic world. So I thought that would be, you know, down the road, that might be a good thing to do. So one thing leads to another, I get my certification and administration. One of the fun things about that is when I was taking the courses at Cortland, it was very interesting. But one of the things I said to my wife when I came home one night from class was, I'm really glad I'm doing this. But I can tell you one thing, I don't ever want to be a principal. And so never say never, I guess is the moral. But I couldn't accept the ministry of coursework. And at that point in time, I thought, well, I've got this certification and this extra degree. And I started applying for jobs as a as an assistant principal, your your typical entry level position for school administrators. And eventually, after failing in a number of interviews, I landed at Kendall central schools as an assistant principal, had a wonderful experience there. I was only there for three years. But I had mentors there that really helped shaped me and for me as an administrator, and I carried those lessons forever. Michael Laughlin was the principal at the time and a man named Harlow Fisher was a superintendent. It was a little district, there was just four of us, administrators. And so you did everything. And I remember early on, no superintendent came to me after a month or two and said, Hey, we want you to be as well as soon as well as assistant principal, we'd like to be the Director of Staff Development. And I said, Well, that's great. What's that, you know, I was curious could be an eye but in a small place like that. You get so many experiences, so many opportunities, and I learned so much in three years, but my wife and I wanted to get back towards the Finger Lakes and a job came up at Newark. in Wayne County as the assistant principal at Newark High School, and that was closer to where we wanted to live. So I applied and became the assistant principal at Newark, high school. This is in 1990, I believe. And I did that job for one year. And then the principal, Laura Frank, who also was a great mentor, left to go to be a superintendent down at Westchester County. And she recommended that I be the interim principal, which I was named the interim principal at Newark, became a full time principal shortly after that, and stayed there as principal I was AP for one year, principal for four more years. And then when I was at a meeting for principals, it was in Webster, over and Webster and school building there came out of the meeting, it was a principals meetings, there was lots of us there, I came up, and I walked down the hall. And he had to go by the HR office at Webster and they had all the job postings up there. And his big red F caught my eye. And I knew that was the Fairport black F. And it said, high school principal position apply by whatever. And so I did what I think anybody would do, I looked up and down the hall, I didn't see anybody out. So I ripped it off the wall, eliminate a little bit of the competition, and knew that that was going to be my dream job, if I could somehow get things worked out, I went to the airport in 1995, I had 13 years there, and loved every minute of it. So that's kind of the route I took to to come to be the principal a fair price. And then work with you. Well, it's it's funny, you mentioned the mentors and and choosing the path that you did, because when I got into teaching, I, for a longest time, the thought of administration didn't cross my mind at all, until I met you and watched how you did the job. And I said, you know, I tell people that I had no interest in administration. And then I saw this guy de phatic, out in the hallway, talking with kids doing the little things being there. And, you know, little support, not only for kids, but staff, parents, and just so many ways. And I think that's something that gets lost is how important those mentors and those people that do show those good examples are, in terms of what we do. We hear a lot about instruction. You know, that's something that gets a lot of news coverage. And and even in education courses or administrative courses. There's a lot of focus on instruction. But I wanted to go in a direction as we talked about with culture earlier. You know, why is having that building culture and district culture, so important to reaching students not just at an academic level, but just keeping them involved in school and and in the game, if you will? Well, you know, I agree with that Wayne, about, obviously, the importance of instruction. And that's why it's so important to hire great teachers, and give them and support them. But you mentioned, you use the phrase early on, when we first started talking about making school a place for kids want to be, and that comes down to the culture that you create. And I do think that culture is created by the entire building, it's a wee thing, I do think principals have the opportunity to set a tone. And I'm doing some meditative mentoring now. And with people in the area, and I talk a lot about, you can't control everything, but you set the tone for the building. And I guess it's just really, really important to me, that the tone is positive, that it's upbeat, that it's loving, and that you create an atmosphere that not just students enjoy and want to come to. But I think your teachers, your custodians, your secretaries, administrative assistants, and all the people that are there for high school had about 2000 people come in every day. And some days were easier than others. Some days were fun. And some days were nothing but you know, tough issues to deal with. But by working together and making it a wee thing, and not an AI thing, by supporting people by being positive, and having fun. And you kind of alluded to that as well, too. And I I think I think it is fun. And school should be fun. learning should be fun. It's not for all kids at all times. But I think the leaders in the school, the teachers, and the administrators and everybody responsible for creating the atmosphere, need to be positive need to be encouraging and need to make it a place where kids want to come if they don't want to come if there's if you're forcing them to be there, and they're not happy to be there. The second work isn't gonna work well and it's something you mentioned that's important is in that vein as well is also having staff buy in. So that they want to be there too, because it trickles down. Yeah. And, and I think it was in a lesson that you taught me at some point we were talking about, I don't know what there was something. I think it was actually post Columbine. And I think you were speaking to the staff and you said something that if the kids see that, you that you're okay, they'll be okay being back here. Yeah. And, and that's an important lesson that, hey, we're gonna have fun, you know, it's okay for you to smile. It's okay to you know, that have a good time while you're in the classroom. And I think those are some important lessons that you've always you've always shared with people and taught if I could have waited one other thing that you mentioned that I think is important, I don't want to skip over it is about thing in the halls and you said doing the little things. Right? Honestly, I think the little things are the most important things. For example, knowing as many students by name as you possibly can, going to as many events as you can, and still keep the balance between your you know, home and school that's important for administrators and leaders as well, too. But I don't think there's anything more important, quite honestly, then being able to walk down the hallway, and say, I really enjoyed your concert last night, Suzie, or great game last night, Wayne, whoever it might be. Right now, like we you and I have talked a lot about visibility, and how important that is. And it's and how critical that is to establish relationships, which those two things together, help create that culture that I think you and I are talking about. Absolutely. And, you know, we're gonna shift gears a little bit from, it's another little thing that we've talked a lot about. We've talked a lot about visibility, but let's talk about donuts going in the bill that culture. And and then, you know, let's take that in terms of the buy in from kids. And then also, we talked a little bit about staff, but the buy in from kids and staff are a little bit different as to how you get there. And I think I think there are some there is some crossover. But talk a little bit about that difference between the buy in from kids in the building and the staff in a building? And what are the challenges with both of them? You know, what a couple things that I use, I've always said is 12th graders respond the same to the same things that kindergarteners do. And that's not a criticism at all, kids are kids. And you know, you joke about the doughnuts. But one of the things that we try to do every week is have the principal's recognition program, which we honored about 12 kids every every week, come down to the principal's office, we'd have doughnuts and juice or chocolate milk or something and, and that program was such a critical part to helping create that culture. And reinforcing with the kids that we we like you, you know, knowing their name says we like you to that program became better once we included teachers and family members in that as well. And so as much as kindergarteners and 12th graders respond to the same things. I learned after a while that so do faculty and staff as well, pat on the back, a certificate that says you're doing a great job, a note in your mailbox, I one of our great teachers over the years as a friend of yours of mine, John Baines. I went to John was a master teacher, as you will know. And I observed John a few times. And after one of the only times I just went back to my office. So I wrote a layout and stuck it in the mailbox. And John says I honored to be in your class today. Students are lucky to have you. Thanks for all you do. That note was on John's bulletin board for the next 10 years. So it's that little pat on the back that little acknowledgement, maybe that's the word that acknowledgement that you're an important person works for kids, and works for the adults as well. And it's important for both well, and I think in our piece of that, too, you know, that acknowledgement that they're that you're important and that you belong. And also, we are really good. I think in schools that catching kids when they're done something wrong. And something like principals recognition is a great way to catch them when they're doing the good thing. Yes. And and that was one of the things that struck me over time was, here's some recognition. There were so many times where hey, this this student, you know, Johnny or Susie helped out when this situation either helped out a fellow student and it just helped reinforce repeatedly, how you how you wanted students to how we all wanted students to react and act with each other. And it becomes kind of a self fulfilling prophecy if you keep reinforcing that when we used to also allow schools do this have good news from FHS cards and teachers could fill them out and send them home. You know, drop them off the office would mail them home and I really encourage those as well and As you know, I used to go to seniors houses for breakfast. And more than once, as I was sitting at breakfast in a student's home, I'd look on the refrigerator and see good news from FHS card. And I'd say, Who's something that you know, and, and they might say, Oh, that was from Mr. Ackles, I got that in 10th grade, well, here they are seniors. Two years later, it's still on the refrigerator, it took it took you or whoever the teacher was less than a minute to fill that out, and give that kid some credit for doing his homework three days in a row, whatever it might be. And the parents are so thrilled with that, that they put it on the refrigerator and kept there for two or three years, that, to me, that shows how powerful little things are. Yeah, and the idea of, again, it's a little thing that doesn't take a lot of time. You know, it's not a grand program, it's not something that you have to bring an outside expert in and spend 1000s and 1000s of dollars in your district to make happen. These little things are a great building block to get the culture that you want to have happening in your building little things and don't get exactly. For sure. Now, when you've worked to change the building culture, and you know, we were talking about teachers, and you and I've talked about this, both when I was an AP, and over the years, when we're hiring, what what were the qualities that you were looking for now, you know, there's a lot of different schools of thought to this. And I always thought you had a great take on it. And I'd like to hear a little bit about that. And when you were trying to find change agents or people that fit the culture when you're hiring. Well, yeah, that's a really important point, I think, because I said earlier, it's creating the culture as a wee thing, and it takes all the adults, all the leaders to create the culture, your lot. So when you're hiring, you are really looking for people who are a good match with the culture you're trying to create. And, you know, you and I were both involved in lots of hiring over the years. And we always had committees with students and parents and everybody else doing it. And if I was hiring a math teacher, let's say we were hiring a math teacher. Pretty much every candidate that came in through for an interview, they were good at math. And, and they probably liked math. And of course, we wanted teachers who were good at math, and who liked math as well. But what I would try to get to in those interviews are walking down the hall of them or watching them do a lesson, a demonstration lesson was, was in their heart. Why did they want to be a teacher of Fairport High School in the first place? And I would ask them now why did you go into education, and if it was because they loved math, or if it was because they liked math, that was a red flag for me. It was because they liked math. And they were good at math, and they loved working with teenagers. That's the person we're looking for. Because not everybody that likes math, who is good at math, becomes a great teacher, teaching 16 and 17 year olds, stuff that they may not care about, doesn't have a whole lot to do with how good you were with math in high school. It's more with how well you are able to connect with those kids. So we're looking for that ability to connect. We're looking for that love of working with young people. And just that maybe personality or an intangible that says this is a person that's going to add to our culture. Absolutely, absolutely. And it was, as we've been talking, one of the other groups that you've talked about, as you mentioned, the week that it's a wee thing, and you mentioned that it's admin or administrative assistants and others. I'm going to mention a name here. Okay. This is someone that came up in a conversation actually, in the last couple of days. And this is not someone that was on the teaching staff. This was not someone that had a regular title, but was, I think, an instrumental part in the building of and that was her grant. I knew you're going there. So talk a little bit about, you know, the importance of, you know, here's a guy that really is not someone that would necessarily show up in the eye, I guess the program or, you know, he's not on the players last, you know, for a team was so instrumental. So talk a little bit about that, and his the role that he played and why he was so important to the building. I'll expand a little bit but simply herb Graham, who we both love was great in that building, because as big a man as he was, his heart was bigger. I just alluded a minute ago about trying to find out what's in somebody's heart when we're interviewing them. And when we hired her, there was clearly a sense that this is a guy who we hired technically as a hall monitor. Well, her became a pseudo he was a hall monitor, but it became Have a pseudo guidance counselor, assistant principal, assistant coach, you name it. Kids went to her for help when they were down, you know, if a kid was angry, we'd say her, you know, Johnny's upset, can you take him for a walk, and herb would take him walk around the building, and he just had that ability to connect with kids. That is exactly what we're looking for. And yeah, her became certainly one of our leaders in the building. He was instrumental in us developing our brotherhood sisterhood program, which was part of the culture occurs for installers and febrile High School. But, you know, her wasn't not an educator, he came to us as a retired Xerox person, and became clearly one of the most valuable people we had in the building. And he's a perfect example of what we're trying to hire. A net is somebody who has the ability to, and wants to connect with kids, and on their, on their good days, and on their bad days. And that's why I think all of us grew to respect and like her so much. Yeah, and I think he was a great example of the caring hall monitors in general that we had, yeah, I put them up against any group in any building that I've ever worked in. And, and even, you know, hearing from colleagues and who they have, and sometimes they have, you know, professional security staff, etc, that are more trained. But I don't think you can find people that were more caring than than the centuries and the hall monitors that we had a fair report during that time. So one of the things, you know, we talked about building a culture, and sometimes there are some things that in our roles within schools, that we have to, you know, when it comes to discipline, and some things that are a little tougher, and I think one of the procedural things that I took with me from Fairport, and the work that we did, and I think a lot of schools have gone to this, and I think successful schools that deal with drugs and alcohol have gone to this where the the principal's contracts, as we call them. I'm blanking on the the the technical name for them. But for those that don't don't know what this is, you know, there's the possibility when someone is facing a suspension, that you can waive the hearing with the rights to a hearing, and set up a principles agreement. And that was something that I thought was very important in building broader culture, not only within the building in terms of people seeing that we were handling issues, but also in the broader outside of the school community, where we were talking with parents and working with parents to show them that we want you know, we were all working for the best efforts of their of their kids, even in some of these really, really tough situations. Right. Talk a little bit about that, you know, how that developed. And and some of the thinking behind that? Well, when, you know, if a student was found, to be violating the drug and alcohol policy, that's a serious charge and, and traditionally, that would end up in a superintendents hearing, which, which tends to be kind of legalese legalistic. It can be a difficult situation, parents sometimes bring in their lawyer in the school lawyers there and everybody, it's kind of a confrontation. And, actually, Bill Keller, when Bill came to Fairport, he introduced, what we had talked about doing a bill gave us a green light to go ahead with, we would say to parents in those situations, we can go through the superintendents hearing, if you'd like. Once we get into that situation, it's out of our control as a hearing officer, who makes the decisions and really is between two parties. And we can go that way you have a legal right to do that. But we will often also say to the parents, or if you prefer, we can just sit here, come back tomorrow, have a principals hearing with you and your son or daughter, and the counselors. And we'll sit around the table and we'll try to figure out together what works best for the student. And we had standards, for example, in those days and things change. But for a first time marijuana violation we were using. Our standard was pretty much a long term suspension. And it could be it could be the rest of the semester or it could be the rest of the year. And sometimes those could be 1015 20 weeks. That seems like a harsh penalty. From my perspective at this time, but it worked at the time. I want students out that long. So in a principals hearing, we could sit with the parents and come to an agreement have a much shorter time period for the student to be out of school. And they would also agree to maybe some counseling, always we would. We can't mandate counseling, but we could offer it right. And as parents saw that, that was an attempt to try to help the student avoid the situation in the future, they felt good. We of course, have always provided tutoring. So a student was wasn't falling behind their classwork. I guess, to get to the end of it. This what this really was, was, it was an agreement between the school and the parent, as opposed to the school, hammering the kid and saying, here's what we're going to do to you. The principal's hearing a lot of us to reduce the length of time they were out and come to a mutual agreement about us, we have to hold him accountable and have to discipline him. But we can also combine that with support and make it a mutual agreement. The nice thing about a wham was up. And you have too many of those, and we're part of them. When parents left those principal meetings, principals hearings, instead of a superintendents hearing, I think they felt like they were heard. And they were able to contribute to what the final outcome was. And for the most part, I would say 95% of the time, we reached a mutual agreement, where the parents were satisfied. And we were satisfied that we were doing our job as well, too. So that was a great way to go about it. And I've worked in a few schools since then, where we've tried to bring that in because it was such a better atmosphere. Operation. Instead of confrontation, it worked well, well, even the name and and we call them helping contracts. Because that's right, the goal was it truly was to help this, it wasn't just about punishment, there was an element of, you know, there's time out of school, but there was also that connection to outside resources. Because otherwise, if you just if you just send a student out, as we both know, and there's no follow up with any kind of substance abuse work, or anything else, we all could be back there three months from now, or six or 10, or whatever. Yeah, I really think a situation that can be very difficult. And it turned it into an opportunity for collaboration is what it ended up being is sitting having a difficult confrontational meeting with parents, it was a let's see how we can work this out. And they knew that the student was going to be disciplined. That was part of it as well, too sure. But I think they were out feeling good that we cared about him, we were there to help them. And I try to always make it a point to to check in and I would call a week later. Or you might call as the assistant principal or counselor. So it wasn't just like you're out of our school for five weeks, we don't want to see you here. It was never like that it was more like, here's what we have to do, we have to hold you accountable for that you broke a very serious school rule. But here's how we can help. And I just remembered parents leaving feeling, feeling good about the fact that they retreated. And I think there was they knew us, they weren't sitting in a room, right, some lawyers, or some district off office, people who they didn't know, they knew that you were there to help the kid the guidance counselor was sitting there. And it was, it was a good way to take care of those situations. And I think part of the culture is when that kid comes back, you don't want them angry. Right? Right. You know, you want the parents angry? Well, that doesn't help anybody either. So well, especially you know, is a student may go through that, you know, and in the case of Fairport, we're dealing with sophomores, your seniors, and a lot of times some of those first mistakes of their sophomore year, you're going to be with that student for the next three years. And so building that relationship out of the even fight on something tough sometimes those are some of the best relationships between parents in the school where where they saw the Hey, you were on, trying to do the best to help them out in a very tough situation to get the best result for their child. I think even weighing a simple statement sometime of which I used to say and I think others said when when you're disciplining the kid, and the parents or their whatever the parents are out there, I say, you know, Johnny, I hate this. I wish I didn't have to do this is such a good kid. But this mistake has, we have to hold you accountable for that. Right? I think that approach, as opposed to you can't break these rules. And here's what's going to happen to you. And I don't think that's common. But I think tone is everything in treating a kid who has made a mistake with respect, and treating those parents with respect goes a long ways to how they react to the consequences. So we're both out of the day to day grind of running school buildings. And something that's been on my mind with the turn of the new year. Is the change in the marijuana laws. I thought about Yeah, and I know how I feel from a public policy standpoint. I feel a little bit differently as a former school administrator, and I was kind of curious as to your take on that. Well, I don't know the law well enough. Is it legal for us? You know, under 18? Or under 21? I'm not sure it is. So I believe it is not legal for anyone under the age 21. One, I've think they follow the alcohol rules fairly simply. So, you know, I had a feeling you're gonna ask me this question, and I'm not totally sure how I feel about it. I haven't given enough thought, but knowing that it's still illegal for teenagers, I'm not sure it would change my philosophy too much, and how serious a violation it is in school. The only thing I think, in hindsight now is that as times change, less time out of school, would be something that I would probably, if I was a principal now, we used to, we used to kind of have that standard of at least five weeks out for a marijuana violation. That was kind of the standard word with it. I think, at this point in time, I would shorten the time out of school and do some other proactive positive things to help the student that's, and whether that's because it's now legal? I don't know. I don't think it is, I think it's just how things evolve. And my thinking has evolved. Yeah, and I would agree with you on now, I think it's one of those things that kids are best when they're with caring adults, and structure. And, you know, the more they're away from it, I think we saw that during the span during the bulk of this pandemic, when so much time was spent on remote learning. And that that was kind of the hidden gem, if you will, for schools, too, that was rediscovered was that, hey, we really miss having that time together. And the importance of having that time together that we talked about, you know, everything I believe in, in school is based on relationships and connections. And it's pretty hard to connect with kids, if you don't have them in the building. So that's, you know, just we can't we went to school. And so I think the shorter time you can suspend somebody for a serious violation. The only exception I make to that is if they're a danger to somebody else, if it's some kind of violence or training or something where someone can get hurt, and they gotta be out for a while. But, and sometimes the drugs, if they're providing drugs for somebody else, that can be dangerous, too. So every situation is different. But I think my thinking has evolved to the point of getting back to school as quickly as you can, and still make sure they understand the seriousness of whatever the offense was. In that nuance that you're talking about, I think sometimes get locked gets lost, we hear a lot about zero tolerance policies. And it's something we've talked about in the past. And that's a topic a whole other topic for another time. But, you know, under understanding and recognizing those nuances exists, I think is critical when you're keeping tone in relationships and those things in place for sure. Never a big fan of the of the zero talents, a phrase, there are some things that we wouldn't tolerate, but zero tolerance. For example, if a student has a weapon in school, certainly we can't tolerate that. But there were a few times when a student who worked at Wegmans and headed back a box cutter in his backpack, because they forgot to leave it at home. And we're going to suspend him for one year. That was always a difficult situation. And no, we weren't. But zero talent, right? Zero Tolerance would tie your hands. And you'd suspend that kid for one year. And it just didn't make sense to me. So I'm glad we had somebody. Well, and the same thing apply. You know, they're even in some of the drug situations that we ran into someone made an honest mistake. And it was clear with a number of safe prescription pills they had with them that they had, honestly, they were at a friend's house the night before. And it was clear that all the pills were there. They weren't missing. And that was just an honest mistake. Again, no, we're not going to maybe run you through the same thing. But we're going to have a conversation about it that hey, you can't bring this to school. So you've been New York State Principal of the Year, you've got a street named after you. And that's from the work that you did as a principal. What what are you proudest of as your time as a principal? You know, what do you think your legacy is? Well, first of all, I was really lucky. I get to work in a place where I grew up where my parents taught, my dad coached. Where, you know, I just meant a lot to me. I got to work with amazing faculty, the ones that were there when I got there, and the ones that we were fortunate to hire like yourself. We're just awesome. The community of Fairport, the families that we worked with, as you well know. I mean, you just, as I used to say, at the beginning of every school year, at the end of the opening faculty meeting is if it can't be happy teaching, or working as school here, you probably can't be happy teaching or working in a school anywhere because it Fairport was just such a great place to work. So more than anything, I consider myself extremely fortunate to have been there surrounded by so many Good people. What I'm most proud of Wayne is, I think I know what that is. And that is when I run into kids, which I do all the time or see him on Facebook or whatever, it makes me feel good when when they talk about how much they liked going to Fairport High School, how much they have good memories of it. And the same thing if, if I ran into a family member there, and they're happy with the fact that they worked at Fairport High School when I was there as well to you. Yeah. You know, it's about people. And it's the people that were there, when you were there. share with you that they had a good experience there. That's all you can really ask for. So that's what makes me great. Well, and I think that's a great legacy. Well, here's, here's the big question. And we saved it for last. And, you know, you've been retired, almost 15 years now. I think it's 15 years, this boom coming up. And I know you've kept busy. And this year with the pandemic has been known as the Great resignation. I and I changed careers, even during this time period. What advice would you give to people as they're approaching retirement, and especially those those that listen, that might be administrators, it's, it's definitely a change that, you know, you can navigate a lot of different ways. And you seem to have adjusted well, and, and you've had a lot of different adventures along the way, I'd like to get your take on now. you've navigated, I don't think I realized how important it is to have a plan when you retire from me, if you're a school administrator, going from 1214 hours a day, to if you're doing nothing, you know, you got a lot of time on your hands. So I really would encourage people to have a plan and idea of what's coming next, I think retirements the wrong word, when you when you leave education, you know, at a fairly early age, a fairly young age, it's it's or it might be retirement from public schools, in a traditional, you know, way you work, but you're going to go on to something else. And I think it's important that as you retire, you have an idea of what you might want to do. I have been fortunate enough to I spent three years as a as a principal at a small Catholic school. And that was just plain fun, and great for three years. And I've been and I continue to mentor young principals, and administrators and I love that I've worked with anywhere from five or six a year up to 16 or 17. A year that keeps me busy and has kept me busy. The pandemic has changed things, that's for sure. It's not as busy as I have been in the past. But you know, my wife, Tara, and I travel a lot. We were snowbirds, we get to Florida for a few months every year. And so I guess the advice I give to people as they make the transition, because it's a bigger transition than you might realize, is to have an idea, have a thought about what you want to do. You don't want to sit around and do nothing. And, you know, it's it's nice to have time to do what you want to do. It's nice to have time to play golf, it's nice to have time to read a book or go on a trip. But you need more than that, I think as well, too. So that would be my suggestion. That's great advice. as I as I wrap this up here, I want to thank you again, and and not only for what you've done for so many people, but for me personally, like I said, I never would have even thought about administration until I met you and saw the work that you do. And again, the little things. And I think it's important that that kind of mentoring continues. So those of you that are listening that are thinking about getting into administration, maybe reach out to Dave on Facebook, and see if that is something that he can give you some advice on. And I want to thank you for taking the time and being our first guest on education matters, which is pretty exciting. So people don't have to listen to my me run my mouth for a full hour tonight. So But thanks so much again and have a great day. And I know you're going to Florida films we oh yeah, got a couple of weeks and safe travels and we'll we'll talk again soon. We'll have you back on if your phone's going away. I've enjoyed talking to you. And I hope I hope when you and I were together. You enjoyed it as much as I did, because we had a lot of fun. Oh, it was a ball. It was a ball fire be in touch. That concludes this week's episode of education matters New York. Thank you for listening, and we look forward to being with you again next week. Have a great weekend. Take care