Dave Dunn 45 Years in Education

David Dunn, the immensely successful principal for Martha Brown Middle School, reflects on his career. This emotional interview explores what created that success over 45 years and what kids really need from all of us in public education. 

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Welcome back to education matters. I'm your host, Wayne Ackles. And I'm very excited to have our guest here today, Mr. David Dunn. David has recently retired from Fairport. And before I say too much more, let him introduce himself. And talk a little bit about his background. David welcome, and cannot wait to get into this. So why don't you tell everybody a little bit about yourself? Thanks for joining. Thanks for the invitation. So yeah, I did retire a couple of weeks ago after 45 years as a teacher in Fairport as well as the last 27 years as a middle school principal, and had a great run a little bit about my background. I love long life long resident of Fairport, my dad lived in fear for all his life. So I'm one of five kids. And, you know, we spent our entire childhood in the same house in Fairport. You know, I'm proud to say that my parents were part of the, the world's greatest generation. So, you know, going back into I was born and 55. And, you know, kinda it was a lot of old school stuff. And I don't regret one minute, the childhood that I had, with one of five kids, my dad worked two jobs. He was a mailman back then they didn't make a lot of money. I think when he retired in the 70s, they started making money. My mom was a stay at home mom and lived in a small small street off Jefferson Avenue and in Fairport, and, you know, it was all I mean, our world growing up was neighborhood based. You had one car, and that was that most of the times, you know, my dad had that car. So there were no cars taken people around. And you know, I guess we look back, we were probably poor, and didn't even know it. You know, because most of our families were in the same situation. My Oh, there's about a 12 age range between the five of us so we were all pretty close. And not only myself and my daughter or my younger sister, were the only two that went to four year colleges. My parents didn't have a lot of money. Their parents didn't have a lot of money. But they, you know, they took a lot of pride in finding money for the last year the kids to go through I did have my brother went the Marine Corps for four years. So I'm a product of Fairport, I retired from Fairport, I'm one of these guys that just never left the community. And I have no regrets because I raised three kids of my my own living in Fairport and a great community, but I always I was a people person, you know, my dad gave me those people skills. My mom gave me the skills of kindness you know if if she's not a saint and haven't I don't know who would be because my mother I can think back never never she smoked God bless her that would that's what that are and but never drank. never swore never said a bad word about anybody and raised us as, Hey, do unto others, as you know you do out of yourself, stuff like that. So I had great parenting. And I graduated from Fairport High School in 73. We have our 50th high school reunion coming up next fall. Excited about that. And once we go, and I knew I wanted to become a teacher, I had a lot of great teachers in my Fairport career from kindergarten right on through, and you know, being a people person, being someone that likes to help change people's lives, you know, education was a good path for me. And sure enough, I graduated from Oswego four years in secondary math background, and got my first teaching job, right out of college in 1977, working at Fairport, and I happen to be hired by flatpak, who was the first principal at Martha Brown back when it opened at 65. And then 77, I was given the opportunity to teach math in Fairport. Well, you mentioned a lot of the people skills that your mom and dad gave you. And what do you think those other elements are ingredients that you had for your success? On which one of those and which of those do you think you came by naturally? And which ones do you think you worked at? I mean, I would imagine the people skills, you grew up with that. And that became kind of ingrained. And you've always been a people person, and most people that get into education are what do you think some of the other skills that, you know, led to your success for all those years, especially as a middle school principal? Sure, yeah, that people skills are definitely important and middle of bias, I don't know how much you can teach that, you know, I think you either have that innate inside you or not. So I was definitely blessed with a lot of people skills, you know, growing up as one of five and a family that didn't have a lot of money. I always felt like I was someone for the underdog. You know, I was always, you know, going to be an advocate for someone that didn't have as much as someone else. So I kind of go into that, that mindset. And my first 18 years as I was teaching, I was really shaped by legendary teachers again, back in hired back in the 60s and 70s. So they taught you how to teach that That's exactly true. You know, you had an unofficial mentor, and in my case, I had five other math teachers and they were all my unofficial mentors and they would all you know, tell you how to do things. And so I give a lot of credit to to To the teachers that I worked with, but terms of, you know, going to the next step, being a leader, you know, that takes a whole nother level skill set. And I think I was just always have been someone that has, you know, less than, and kind of taking in a lot of different cues from people. And, you know, part of my success, I think, as being a Building Principle is, you know, the art of listening, things that come easy for me are the people skills, but I think sometimes you have to work a little on the listening skills. And you know, you're dealing with, I got 150 staff in my building and 750 kids. So we're not all thinking the same thing. You know, you've got met many parents times, too. So the thing you have to constantly work on is, you know, being able to listen to other people's points of view, and trying to find some common ground, whether it's leading a faculty, you know, where you're moving in one direction, and I've always tried to pride myself on, on going where 60 70% are with you right out of the gate. And that's the easy group, and then the other 30% You work at, and then you also know, you've got that 70% that are working on that as well. So part of my success, I think, is being able to initially move a critical mass, and then having that mass along with your leadership move the rest? Well, you said, you said two things I wanted to follow up on, I'm going to take them in reverse order. The first thing you said was about being for the underdog. And I think that's really important, all of you that are out there that are thinking of becoming administrators. That that's a trait that I share with Dave. And I think that's a critically important role in your administrative role. Because sometimes you might be the only person that is the voice for that kid, because they will may have pushed everybody else's buttons. And they may need that advocate. And as the administrator, you might be the last person that is that advocate, even though you're gonna hold them accountable, you still have to remember you might have to be that last advocate, but I want to come back to that in a minute. The other thing that you said was that listening, and it was funny, I was having a conversation with my colleagues today, I brought up the fact that I always had people on my staff, I always had three or four people that I kind of kept. That could tell me bad news. And I'm curious if that was something that you had kind of those unofficial, they may not have been the union, you know, rep for the building or something, but someone that you could say, Gee, I'm thinking about this, or you know, just the pulse of the building that kind of thing? Well, you obviously look at your, at your stakeholders as blessed to have some great lead teachers. And that was my first line of, you know, conversations around what do you think about doing this? I'm also a strong proponent of your mental health staff. And if you are a young administrator out there, you have to embrace your mental health staff because behind the scenes, they're what makes these kids come into the school day in and day out. And as a classroom teacher for eight teachers in that same building. I had no idea what our guidance counselor's did back in the 70s. I never saw my counselor. I never saw a school counselor. So I had no idea for 18 years. But my first year as principal, my eyes opened wide as I actually had front row in the offices of our counselors and watched in awe of how they connected and how they restored and how they gave these kids that struggle to come to school for a variety of reasons. And if you're not aware of Fairport, we're pretty high socio economic. And we have it all within that high socio economic district. We have kids that have single parents, we've got kids that are struggling with gender identity. We have kids whose parents are on the poverty line, kids that have been abused, sexually abused, we have it all in our in our high socio economic school district. And I mean, I really grew by listening and learning from my counselors. And you know, that they're just reinforced my skill set that I don't have to worry about the kids that are ready for the Adderall, you know, that those aren't kids that really need to be at high on my radar. It was the kids that were coming down to the office a lot referrals are not coming to school at all. Those were the kids that were on my radar. Sure is an opportunity to work with, you know, their families and their teachers and their counselors to help them get back on their feet. So glad you mentioned that about the counselors because that's something that again, if there was any advice I would give to a young new building administrator is, as you said, embrace working with those counselors. I felt like I was in their offices probably more than I was in my own office, working with them and trying to help give them what they needed in terms of whether it was support or you know, another year in there for a kid or whatever it was so that's good stuff that that roll of that underdog. Talk a little bit about that. And and you know, you mentioned the kid that might be you struggling to get to school and some of those other folks talk a little bit more about that role of supporting the underdog, both in your teaching and administrative experience. I'll start with my teaching, because I think back on my 18 years, you know, we had three levels of classes. We had regents, honors and non regents, I'm not sure that use that term anymore, because I never understood it because it was, it was if you're a non regents class, they were saying what you weren't, not what you were, yeah, that but that was a state term. But anyway, I taught general math. And those were the kids that years later, would run up to you. And just thank you so much for all you did for them know, your honors kids didn't always run up, you know, there was a level of expectation, right. But I think back on those on those kids, and so they worked in, you know, government subsidized lives in government, government subsidized housing, and they had very, very little, but they really appreciated what you gave them. Yeah, so I've just never lost that love for the child that just doesn't have as much whether it's a human resource with parents and siblings or relatives at home, or it's a financial resource with money. I've just always had my eye open for for that. Before I forget, I just wanted to share with you want one sentence, that whether you're a teacher, or whether you're an administrator, if you can live your life, and and, you know, role model, this this sentence, I think you're going to be built for success in many, many different ways. And it's just very simple. It's a quote, I think it was that your I'm not sure who I think I think do we may have been associate with this quote, but kids don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care. And that one quote, you could take all your 120 college course credits, okay, that one quote supersedes any course I took. But you can't just say the quote, you gotta live it. It's so true. And that's one of the things that we focused on a lot on the show Dave is is culture and building culture, whether it's classroom culture, building, culture, district culture, that sentence captures that, it really it doesn't matter. I don't care how smart someone is. I don't care what their GPA is. If kids are not convinced that you're there for them, they're not going to tune in, they're not buying what you're selling. And that's an important thing for all of us to remember when it comes to this. This thing we call education. Good stuff. One of the things I wanted to get back to your success as a for all those years, and you said 27 years of it, you were doing the middle school principal gig. And I have to say, and I when I wrote this question up, it's a little, a little less formal than what I usually write up. But you're a high energy dude, you always have been. And I think that's one of the elements to your success. You've sustained that I've known you for a long time. Right? And and I can't say that I knew you back when, but I've known you for a long time. And you've been high energy throughout the 18 years that I worked with the affair poor. And by the way, my own kids went through Dave's school. Got to see him at some events. I've seen him at the pep rally that Jim Zumbo talked about here a couple years ago, or a couple weeks ago. You've kept that energy up over the course of your career. And a lot of times you hear about administrators that burn out and flame out. How did you keep that energy? Over the years? It's something I've been dying to ask you for years now. You never seem to miss a beat. Talk a little bit about that. Well, I think for me, one of the secrets is I chose to live in the same school district that I principal and I've never left airport. So my kids were all in my, in my school. So part of me you're just immersed in the Fairport culture for 24/7 365. Right? You never leave it. And so I'm always feel like I'm I'm on. I'm at work, always. I always feel like I'm on the job. When I go to Wegmans. I embrace those conversations, even if it's 730. At night, I've never been a guy that's been able to separate my work at home. And maybe my I worked hard not to have my kids feel that. But I always felt that my job was my life. You know, for 27 years. I just it was all one thing. And so my energy level always maintained a high, high standard because I was just always surrounded by my environment, whether it was my students or my parents, I embrace it. And I respect people that that choose not to live in the district that they work. I know that in the mental health standpoint, sometimes confidentiality, it's nice to put yourself in a town to tour away. But for me, I needed to embrace and used to be inside my world. And so I think that's one of the reasons I've been able to maintain a high level of energy. And also, you know, you surround yourself by high level people. So I mean, 27 years, I've hired a lot of staff, probably 70% of my staff that And I retired in two weeks, we're on committees that I chaired, and you hire people that you don't want everybody like me, right? But you're hired people that have energy, you hire people, at least that middle school that love middle school kids, I can't have a high school kid, a high school teacher teaching middle school, or it's not gonna work, you know, they're not going to make it after, after a month. So you know, you really have to make sure you've got people that embrace your philosophy and bliss, embrace what you want your school to be like, well, and that was part of the reason I was so excited to get you here, because I felt that was a pretty good high school principal, I was just okay, as a middle school principal, it just for a lot of reasons. And I think you said a lot there. But you know, there is definitely people have a tendency to, to move into that niche, grow, emulate, not emulate, it's probably the wrong word, but draw that energy for lack of a better term from that level that they're in. And that's interesting, there was a piece that I did for this probably, oh, gosh, I don't know how long ago it was now as a few months ago, and it was talking about that work life balance. And and one of the things that I've always felt is that, that isn't always striving to get that isn't always what's going to work for you. Like you're you know, you can't always separate it, you know, sometimes you're going to put a little bit more toward your family, sometimes you're going to put a little bit more to work. And like you said, you should make it so that it's something that you're enjoying, and when that is, I mean, that was part of the reason when I knew it was time to go was you know, that level of enjoyment wasn't there anymore. And that's, that's part of what I when I knew it was time to go. So you mentioned high school versus Middle School. As I said, from the beginning, you've been very successful as a middle school principal, your Martha Brown people rave about going there. My kids love the experience as well. How are middle schools different than the other levels? And what does a successful middle school look like? And then the follow up to that is, what do people often misunderstand about middle schools? Right? Well, one of the things is that we have a fifth grade parent meeting in spring, every year for 27 years, you know, I would share with them my philosophy as a as a leader. And I'd give him a little background on just early adolescence. And I will tell them that it's only second to infancy, the most important part, physically, socially, emotionally in their child's life, zero to six months is the only time that's more important. And so I tell I tell the parents, your kids are going to challenge you, they're going to stress you, but know that they need you have to love them as much as you did, when they were on your laps. And so that's that's how we, we started off the meeting by letting them know that it's a critical period of time, and you can't you can't screw up, you know, you gotta you're gonna make mistakes, obviously, parents gonna make mistakes, kids are gonna make mistakes. But in the big picture, you got to know that you got three years to hold these kids gently, you know, and to mold them and shape them, and help them grow from being a very, very, you know, young, young little person coming into your school to a young adult is they're leaving going into ninth grade. And it's a precious three years. And, you know, COVID really had a role to play in that three years, obviously, the last couple of years, because we had things that we couldn't do in a three year period of time. But but our staff knows that that from sixth grade, seventh grade, eighth grade, we have these kids that these parents for three years, we got to get it right. And that means that everybody's got to be on the same page. And in terms of what it looks like, you know, we our schools to watch a lot with our John apparel, middle school. And there's there's four components to that kind of national rubric, there's academic excellence, so you got to have high expectations for your kids, there's got to be standards. And then there's a social equity piece, you know, you got to make sure you've got programs for all students, not just your honors kids, that just your you know, your your high, highly athletic students, you know, that it's your social equity lens has to be at these programs available for all kids in our school, and then you got your developmental responsive component. And that is are you really dialing into the emotional intelligence of these kids, the social needs that they have, again, COVID really turned that upside down at school, so the last couple of years, and then the last stages are their organizations and structures in place to support part of the advantage that I've had is for 27 years, you can do a lot of distributed leadership. A lot of middle schools are turned over with leadership every couple of years. At any school. You know, once you got school leadership turning over every few years, it's hard to sustain any kind of continuity. I've been fortunate 27 years and a lot of the staff that I've hired have stayed with me. So there's been a constant sense of focus and narrow, but it's a balance. Oh, you want the teacher to be able to meet the kids where they're at a start the week on a Monday, what Hey, guys, what was your weekend like, we're doing a lot of restorative circles right now, which are great because they're giving kids an opportunity to share their voices, where the teacher steps a step back and gives ownership into the classroom. And and what the kids have to say. And more and more, we've seen teachers really getting into kids needs are. That's why I say high school versus Middle School. We're not we're coming out with a population of kids with an algebra credit, maybe an Earth Science credit, and a foreign language credit, pretty much eighth graders. But most of our middle school courses are not college bearing, and they're not unit Carnegie unit credit. So at the end of the day, you can have an opportunity to focus on the academic excellence, but but also we vent, the social development, mental and the organizational structures. So it's a balance, and I'm looking for a teacher that that can stretch themselves. And I don't want a person that's going to sit behind the stand behind the podium and be the guy you know, the lecture on the stage on the stage, if you will, I want to teach you're willing to step aside, if you take a look at Danielson is rubric that a lot of a lot of our teachers use Danielson, you want to get highly effective, you take a look at the rubric on any domain, it's the kids doing the work, not the teachers, you could be the best teacher in the world, if you're up there just spewing out content, you're never gonna get four, and that out of Danielson, you know. So we really empower our teachers to step aside from the from the podium, and really get into some exploration with kids. I'm glad you mentioned the Danielson rubric there. And that illustration. And I think sometimes people have a hard time with that they expect they expect teachers to somehow do something. And really a lot of it is setting the stage for the kids creating the guidelines for them for the students to do things and to learn from that experience. And I know that was very different from my experience growing up in middle school or otherwise, I remember, she was one of my favorite teachers, she was a great lecture. But I remember walking in, and there'd be three boards full of filled notes, you would dutifully copy the notes down, and then she would lecture on the notes she just gave you. And there wasn't a lot of interaction there. And I think you know, we have really moved leaps and bounds in terms of putting that learning, putting the oldest with kids so that they know how to how they learn working through problems and understanding how things work together. And that creates for that interaction and that social piece that is so important. You mentioned people skills at the beginning of this. That's where a lot of that ties in. That's all good stuff. So if we were we both kind of gave some advice to aspiring administrators at different points here as we were talking, but what what advice would you give to aspiring administrators, especially those that are heading for the middle school level? Because in my mind, when I think of a middle school principal, you are the model for that, in my mind. And that's I think that was part of the reason I was always like, Yeah, I'm doing okay with this, but I'm no Dave done. So what how would you how would you describe that? Or what what advice would you give him today, all right, you're becoming a building leader at the middle school level, going back to the do if you're a teacher, you're big as do is to want those kids to do your course. Because you make it fun. You make it exciting, they want to do your work, because they want to be with you. They want to make you happy. As a principal, I want teachers to understand that that I I was a teacher myself. And another bit of advice that would just give young administrators is never never forget what it's like to be a teacher. Once you're you're either that teacher trench and you've taken that teacher hat off, and you're in there strictly as an administrator, you've lost the game. Okay, you've lost the game. So to stay in the game, keep keep the teacher perspective, always 45 years, I've never lost the teacher perspective. And I've had my teachers say, you know, they want to work with me and for me, because they understand that in deep inside me, I'm still a teacher. I'm still a teacher. So again, never lose that that teacher perspective. But my biggest strength I think is teachers have wanted to work at Martha Brown work for me, because I care about them. And I model that I demonstrate that I could I could name all of my staff, I could name you, their children. We're having conversations daily with them about their kids. I happen to play Santa Claus for 34 years and I've seen a lot of my kids who are now teachers with me as Santa So get to know your your staff. I'm not talking just teachers or custodians, you're clerical. Get to know their families because it's all about people and it's all about connection and relationships and If you're not afraid to step outside your office and walk into a teacher's classroom or custodian office, and sit down and break bread with them and have conversations about their families, that that's, to me, that's been my secret. My staff understand that I know I love them, I love their families, and they're all in 100%, you always gonna have your differences of opinions, but at the end of the day, they respect the fact that you're doing everything you can to get to know that. And that's, that's such a great leadership model in general. And it's not just about teaching is not just about middle school, teaching or leading, but just getting to know the people that you work with, and often work for you. And, and I've had conversations in my new role. There's a new vice president that I'm working with, and I thanked him the other day for being visible, and, and interacting and wanting to get to know people because it's really easy. You know, you said, you put that head on, and you you get locked into my budgets do or I've got this report, or whatever it is that you can get locked into your office, and you really have to do what you were talking about, you've got to breakout, you've got to make connections, because again, it's a culture business. It's It's the ultimate people business. And if you are making those connections, people will feel it in your building. Bottom line. And I'm so glad you said it the way you said it. And and I just have to say for a minute. And this is one of the reasons that I was also glad to have Dave, on the show is I don't know if you can hear it in his voice. But But Dave gets a little emotional when he talks about this stuff. And he's one of the most genuine people I know. And that's one of the reasons I really wanted to have him on because I knew he would be genuine about it. So the time has gone incredibly quickly. And I have one last question. It's been 45 years you've been we talk about sometimes with parents, you know, when the school bus stops coming, and you're kind of at that stage now where you're we're not going to be there on opening day. What advice would you give to administrators or teachers as they near this time? This? It's it's a, it can be a daunting time. Right? So what have you What have you done to prepare yourself? And what would you tell other people to prepare themselves? Sure. Well, I think number one, you know, retirement is is a choice, right? So I'm 67 and August, I could have retired 12 years ago. So for 12 years, I deferred the choice. And it was my decision to defer the choice, because I was still having fun. And I was loving what I was doing. And the only reason I ended up retiring and I told my superintendent COVID didn't draw me out that crazy parents sometimes didn't draw me out that the off task dysregulated kids that we had, as a result of COVID didn't drag me out. My age obviously is 67. And it's out there, right? I guess according to more more data. On my gosh, the insurance, what's the word? I want to know the actuary tables for a table, right? You know, the average life expectancy, I'm probably in the fourth part, right? So there's no guarantee of double overtime. So my age was my really only reason that I had made that decision. And my wife had didn't have a significant health concern in the fall that that kind of opened my eyes as well. So if you still don't, don't let 55 via be a line in the sand that you got to go, you go when you're ready, and you'll know you're ready. I'm not sure I was ready. But it's the right time. So for me, that was a difference in in how I perceived that was the right time for me financially, I'll be honest with you, three kids that were spread out eight years apart financially, we could have done a lot better in terms of Ira planning and stuff like that. So whenever you can do that, that's obviously going to help you out, even though I think at the end of the day, that pension is certainly not a bad thing to retire with. But I would make sure that it's on your terms. Okay. I fully believe you know, I hate it. I hate to hear anybody say, I wish so and so and retire, whether they're talking about a teacher or a fall administrator, and I tried never to have that thought, because it's a personal choice. Tom Brady, right. I'm not a patriot fan. I'm not a Tom Brady fan. But you know what, I respect his decision for to retire when he's ready. Yeah, I just respect that. You know, it's a personal choice. Make sure you're ready. Do I have a plan in September, and I've got my resumes out to the local colleges. I'd love to stay involved in teacher recruitment. I know I'll plan on subbing in Fairport and maybe some are surrounding school districts. I'm not sure what exactly will come forward. I've got a therapy dog that I spent some time with. So I do have some non non educational activities. I love working out so I've worked out at the Y almost every day. I'd love to be Be busy, not five days a week, not seven days a week anymore in a perfect world of taking him in a couple of half days, just enough to keep me busy, as well as enough opportunities for me to do things on my own as well. Yeah. And I think you said something there about being around, you know, education and recruiting teachers and all of that. And, and those of us that have had the fortune of working in schools, I've always seen it, I mean, working with young people as a tonic, and it really makes a difference in terms of your outlook and other things. Well, Dave, this time has gone faster than I thought it you know, it always goes fast. But I have three things. Absolutely. I want to add three things. First of all, going back to the energy level, you administrators out there, I chose to surround myself with kids ages 12 to 14, right. So that's where I'd been for, you know, 2745 years, I've been a middle school teaching middle school principal. So for 45 years, I'm around early, early adolescence, kids, I'm probably still early adolescent mentality. So that's one way to keep yourself young mentally. And secondly, I just wanted to kind of challenge if there's any teachers out here, I know that I've always looked at the teacher recognition, whether it's a football team or a basketball team, or volleyball, you know that the F Sr, athletes get to choose their favorite teacher, right. And sometimes I'm able to announce at the different sporting events, who those kids are, and, and the common the common theme 100% is I've never once heard a student say the Pythagorean Theorem lesson that my ninth grade teacher taught me was, wow, there's never any content behind the choosing of the teacher, university unilaterally, it's how they relate it to that student, how they showed how they care about that student. So I just challenge you teachers out there. And if I were back in the teaching, one of my goals would be to be that teacher, that being is being recognized, maybe not for every sport, but you got to get a couple times out there in your career, where a teacher or a student has said, I'm going to bring someone so to my football game, because always asked me every Monday morning about how my weekend went. So that would be one challenge. And the second challenge for you administrators, again, 27 years of the middle school principal, I had a ton of celebrations, I almost felt like I was a rock star on a war a month tour, I had all kinds of parties, the community was amazing. And I probably have read 500 cards from primarily parents and staff that I worked with retirees that I worked with some of them in their 80s. And there's not one card that mentioned any strategic initiative that they remembered me introducing, or an aptr evaluation that I wrote for them. It's all about relationship. And I was just flooded with thanks for you know, being who I was as a person. And as a leader. I'm the leadership is always there. But it was always the personal touch of how I related to that. So administrators again, I've been blessed in my district that Fairport our mantra is, let's take care of our kids. Let's take care of ourselves. So I've been blessed with some Prince superintendents that haven't been, you know, data driven, haven't been Strategic Plan driven to a certain step, yes. But to a greater extent, take care of business in your building. And that's taking care of your kids and taking care of your staff. Yeah, that the faculty meetings are important, you know, the initiatives are important. But but once you set the stage, and you have your staff following you, and I'm gonna say probably, you know, when I left that 95% of my staff, if I said, turn, right, we're gonna turn right, because they had confidence. And they had belief that Epic is not the smartest kid on the block, but they knew who I was as a person. So I would just encourage and challenge you, administrators to just continue to focus on what's the most important component of running a school? Do you know your kids? Do you know, your staff? Do they know you? And can you support them and show them that you love them? That's my challenge to you. That's been what's been successful for me for 45 years. I wish you all the best of luck. Well, the time that we spent today was all worth it. But those last challenges probably as important as anything else that Dave said throughout the course of the interview today. So Dave, thank you so much for coming on education matters. And maybe we have your back some time. We'll check in and see how things are going. Sounds good. Wayne, thank you. Thanks to all of you. Good luck. This has been education matters New York. I'm your host Wayne Ackles. And this is a fail Wolverine productions. Take care and have a great rest of the week.