Welcome back for Season 2 of Education Matters NY! Jim Zumbo is our kick-off guest for the second season. Jim discusses his career and the role of sports for the whole child. Jim also gives parents tips on how to make the transition to a school sports parent. We also discuss the role of travel leagues and AAU Leagues and their positive and negative impacts on athletes and families.
Welcome back for Season 2 of Education Matters NY! Jim Zumbo is our kick-off guest for the second season. Jim discusses his career and the role of sports for the whole child. Jim also gives parents tips on how to make the transition to a school sports parent. We also discuss the role of travel leagues and AAU Leagues and their positive and negative impacts on athletes and families.
Welcome back to education matters New York. I'm your host, Wayne Ackles. And Welcome to Season Two and I'm very excited for our guest today is the synchronicity or the serendipity of it would have it. One of the first episodes when I recorded that one of the things, the news articles that I mentioned, talked a lot about sports. And I've had the gentleman that's across from me today on my mind for someone to introduce someone I respect a great deal. And consider both a colleague and a friend and a mentor in so many ways. And that is Jim Zumbo. Jim is the retired athletic director from Fairport High School. He was my ad when I was coaching at Fairport longer ago than probably either one of us would like to admit. And so I've asked him here today to give some perspective on sport, because I think Jim has always had what I regard is a positive and measured view of how sports and their role in child's development is. And so I'm going to, you know, give Jim a chance to introduce himself, tell him a little bit about himself before we jump into our round of questions. So I'm very excited to have him here today. Welcome, Jim. Thank you very much. We appreciate the kind words Yeah, well, well deserved. And why don't you tell people a little bit about your career, because one of the things I also tried to do on the podcast is for people that are aspiring to get into a specialty administration. You know, everyone's path is a little bit different. And I think hearing these different paths are good for folks. Okay. Well, what do we call it? In education, planning, UbD planning with the end in mind, I'll tell you where I ended up. I retired six years ago after 32 years and public education. And I would agree with you everybody does follow a different path. And mine was probably a little bit unique in regards to becoming an athletic administrator. I'm a small town kid, grew up in Victor New York, when Victor was a small, more rural community. Now it's a much larger suburban bedroom community. Went to Victor High School was a three sport athlete there grew up in a very close family knit, close knit family. My two older sisters, my dad owned a lumberyard in hardware store in the village. And I was lucky enough to grow up with my grandparents living in my backyard my entire life. So a little bit different upbringing, again, played three sports, football, basketball and baseball. After I graduated from there, went to Ithaca College to major in physical education was an athletic training minor also. So all four years I was an athletic trainer with sport teams there and played two years of baseball was lucky enough to be on a national championship baseball team graduated with a BS in physical education and minoring in health and athletic training, got married right out of college to my now wife of 40 years, Renee, thank you very much. We moved to Columbus, Ohio, where I did my master's work at Ohio State University was a grad assistant there, got my master's degree in Physical Education with a specialization in sport management. Graduated from there and then we move back and we actually went to Africa. I lived there for a year we both worked at the college. She was a secretary in the Health Administration program. And I worked as a staff athletic trainer, I was actually the head women's trainer at Africa for a year wasn't quite what I wanted to do want to be in public education. So I took a unique position at guilderland High School just outside of Albany and section two, I was a part time phys ed and health teacher part time athletic trainers. So I would go in at 10 o'clock in the morning and I'd work until six or whenever night games got done. At one time I was the only person in New York State tenured as an athletic trainer for whatever was that was worth. I don't know what it really was. But it was a unique position. I was there for five years. And while I was there, I did my administrative coursework at SUNY Albany and got my administrative certificate for building level administration. After five years there I interviewed for the athletic director's position at Greece Arcadia high school, got that position at 29 years old. And while I was there for seven years, my position was in a variety of arrangements and reorganizations due to budget cuts in Greece, I was a teacher athletic trainer, athletic director one year I was I ended up my last For years being an assistant principal athletic director in a large suburban school district, and after seven years there, I applied for the position in Fairport, which was a district level position, Director of Health, Physical education and athletics, and came there in 1996. And retired 20 years later, after a great experience there. My kids grew up and I went to school at Fairport High School, my wife worked in the district, she just recently retired. So we had a great experience in Fairport, but when you talk about a different path, most athletic administrators will either have coaching experience or are currently coaching while they're doing it. I only coached one sport my entire career I was while I was doing my student teaching, I was the girls JV basketball coach and Fairport assistant, well, I Excuse me, I did have, I was a JV baseball coach, and Victor. So when I went to interview for athletic directors jobs, I had to spin it in a different way about what my background and experience was. And I tried to spin my athletic training experience in a way that I would say that, you know, you might be interviewing different people who have coaching experience, but their coaching experience is limited and very narrow. Mine was very, very broad, though I might not have been the head coach, I was the assistant coach for every sport, I stood on the sidelines with every coach, and experienced that. So my perspective was a little bit broader. That was a it was my sales pitch. Again, a different path than most people take to be in an athletic director. Well, one of the things I love about these conversations is I get to find out some things that you never knew about someone. And a couple of things that stood out were the athletic trainer part, also that you did a lot of your grad work at Ohio State. So I'm sure that you and Mr. Obon off had a number of conversations about definitely the Ohio, the Ohio State University. Thank you. And that that path, and I thought that was interesting. And it made me think of something else that if we have time, it was something that actually you and I talked about in terms of a phys ed interview, I remember very well about having a different perspective on Phys. Ed. And having that broader, that broader base of knowledge that you brought to it that broader perspective. If I remember, and we have time, I want to circle back to that. Because I think that that also plays a big role and how not only, you know in that position that you were it wasn't just about coaches, you were also running a phys ed and a health program. And that's that part of that role. You also did fantastic job with. Also I have to say that Mr. Zombot, his daughters are fantastic kids, I had the pleasure to teach, I think two of the three, and maybe all three, I can't remember it's been a while now. And my brain is not what it used to be not all that long ago, but fantastic kids, and thank you thank God for their mother. Yes, I was gonna say and someone that puts up with not only you but those three daughters is Renee and who is fantastic. And another fantastic individual. So one of the things that I've the focus today is going to go into beyond school sports and some of those things. And like I said, I do want to maybe circle back if we can, if we've got time to the to the fez, phys ed piece of it. Talk a little bit about you mentioned that broader philosophy because you were on the sidelines for so many different sports. Tell me a little bit about that philosophy that you developed. And I think it was very clear how you wanted Fairport sports to look when you were the athletic director, at least it was and again, and I feel like it was clear to me because you and I had talked about it. But I think people from the outside looking in. I thought it was also very clear, but I wanted to hear your take on that. Well, thanks for making me feel good about clarifying it for at least one of my coaches. Because that was one of the things that I always tried to do. And I still try to do. And my advice to anybody has a parent, anybody as a leader, and administrator or whatever it is, no matter how good you are at what you do, if you give it your best shot, and you're consistent in what you do, and your your philosophy, then at least people know where you're coming from. They might not always agree with you. But they shouldn't be surprised. I always, I always felt that if a coach or a teacher came to me, and were going to ask me a question about whether or not they could this would be good to do. I really hope that they already knew what the answer was going to be. I mean, if they knew me well enough, and they and I have explained where I'm coming from or what I believed, then they should have a real good idea about what the answer was going to be they shouldn't be surprised if they were then I really wasn't doing my job very well. But that's that's an aside. My my philosophy have, you know, it's, it's sort of a corny phrase that people talk about. But I really believe it to be true in school sports is that we are an education based athletic program. And in an education based athletic program, you're supposed to be teaching life lessons through sport. And I really believe that to be the case, and if that's what you believe, and again, I always, I also think, as a leader in any position, you have to have a philosophical base to who you are. And everybody's is different. But whoever it is that you're leading, or supervising needs to know where you're at, because there's going to be a ton of decisions, that's a ton of decisions as a leader, as a teacher, as a parent, in most jobs, there's a ton of decisions that come your way. And if you have to figure out what your philosophy is, every time you have a decision come along, one, you're not going to be consistent to you're never going to be able to answer the questions in a timely manner that you've got to do. And so you got to have that philosophy as a basis. And I really believe that that's what we were supposed to be about in a school is that we're supposed to be teaching life lessons, things that are going to help kids in the future through what their experiences were. And my role as the athletic director was, I needed to one explain that philosophy, to support that philosophy when my coaches were trying to follow through on it. And ultimately, I needed to model that and how I interacted with them supported their decisions or their actions when they were questioned, or whatever, because it might not go along with everybody else's philosophy or people who are, I'm assuming we'll probably talk about travel teams and leagues, and that kind of those philosophies, not saying they're right or wrong, they're just different. And when people are coming from different backgrounds, to our athletic program, you need to there needs to be a consistent answer to that. And that's, that's was my role. And what I thought my coaches were supposed to do was to teach those lessons, all the plethora of lessons that you can learn through athletics, time management, teamwork, commitment, resiliency, dealing with success and failure being a being a gracious winner, and a good loser. And you know, how you work with other people, because all those life lessons, the majority of successful people that I've ever really talked to, and I've been lucky enough to induct a lot of different people into Halls of Fame, whether they be academic or athletic. Most of the people who I know that are successful, if you ask them a little bit about where they involved in athletics at some particular time, the vast majority of them are because you can translate so many skills, from athletics, to real life in business. The majority of Fortune 500 CEOs have some athletic background, you know, leaders and some of the I think, best leaders in education that I was ever around, were phys ed teachers or coaches somewhere in the background, I'd also not just to promote athletics, I would also say the majority of great leaders that I better, either were athletics, or they were in music, you know, because those are all team types of things where you had to bring people together to move something forward. So that was the philosophy that I did and still believe in and the people that I tried to hire, were the ones who are going to take that out and do it. So let's take let's dig a little deeper into that. What does that look like in practice? I know, I remember some of the conversations that you and I had. And a lot of times that was more about, you said some of those decision, you know, some of the decision making. But you know, what, take us through when either what you were looking for when you were hiring someone or how you delivered that message in practice of what that those teaching those life lessons might look like. Okay, when it comes to hiring, I just believe that when you're in any type of a leadership position, and that you are going to have people who report to you and you're going to supervisor and actually are really going to go out and do the work. The most important thing that you do is to hire the right people to send them out to do the work and then support them and mentor them and not just talk the talk but you walk the walk and okay, I'm hiring you for this position. This is this is my, our philosophy for this athletic program. This is how we think things ought to be done. This is how we think people should be treated. You know, you can't just say it and then go okay, go do the go do the work. And then I got other things to do. You need to be around to see if they're following went through on what we talked about, you need to show your face you need to, you know, to support them be able to answer questions do, though it's I think any type of leadership position, but in this role as an athletic administrator, this is a people business, it's not widgets and making stuff and whatever, it's, it's how you interact and communicate with people. And that's, that's the important thing. Again, my job was to communicate the philosophy and the expectations, and then be able to communicate with the people working with me, not for me, with me, to to help them make sure that they were, we were following through on it. And if they needed help, either, could I help? Or do I find somebody else? Or do I direct them to, here's somebody, I'm not really that good at, I know what I want to do. But I'm not that good at it. But here's somebody who's really good at it. You know, and, you know, a team, you heard me say it at lots of coaches meetings, I, I'd say the same thing. 20 years, three coaches, me, I probably said the same thing. 60 times. And unfortunately, there are a lot of coaches who had to hear it multiple times from me, you know, I would start off the meeting by introducing and going around, and everybody would introduce themselves, because that was my team, the coaches, we're gonna go, you're gonna go and coach your team. This is my team. And this is my philosophy, and how I expect my team to work. And this is how I'm going to work with you as your coach, now, you go out and do it. So I think trying to model what you expect is important. And it was interesting, one of the things that, as you were saying, that just resonated with me, was the idea of modeling what you were talking about and saying, you know, this is, this is who we are. And this is what we believe. And you did that time and time again. And one of the things I'll never forget this, and also, what people might not know, is, and I think I've said this before on other podcasts, and I think one of the other guests who was a special ed director, I said, there are, I think the two toughest administrative gigs. By far, it's not high school principal. It is special ed director and athletic director, and for different reasons. And well, actually, one reason I think that in different ways, you're talking about people's dreams about their kids. And sometimes the reality of what those dreams might turn out to be in the role that either athletics or you know, when someone is dealing with some setbacks in terms of their academic or cognitive ability, you know, there's sometimes there's a disconnect between what the reality can be and what that is, and when, when you were talking about, you know, this isn't widgets, this is a people business and trying to communicate without crushing those dreams, but also, trying to put a more realistic look on those dreams is difficult because again, people athletics are a big part of our lives. We see that on you know, we've got 24/7 ESPN and other channels now dedicated to sports. And people see their child in those, those different ventures in athletics, whether it's, you know, the the big three of, you know, baseball, basketball, or football, or the myriad of other sports that are out there now, and depending on your community, those three that I mentioned, might not those might not be the big three, it might be lacrosse, or something else. So neat, neat stuff. And one of the things that when we look at Jim's role in in creating a philosophy, and I think it was something bigger again than just athletics, and it was bigger than just the teams. One of the things that Fairport has done as a tradition. And I'll be honest, it's been a while since especially since my kids have graduated. And there was a community pep rally. I don't know if it's something that is still going on today. And that was something that Jim started, gosh, how many years ago I can't take credit for starting it. I mean, that's that was a tradition before I showed up there. And being a former Red Raider, you know, how important tradition is in Fairport. And that was one that, you know, I was proud to carry on for its Killian, our new athletic director in the community still, and it's transformed over the course of my time it transformed and then after I left, it has transformed again into a different way of doing it. But those community pep rallies were. It was, you know, just one of the many examples in Fairport and I'm sure every community has their different ways of doing it. But I know I'm biased. Nobody does it, did it or continues to do it better than we do in Fairport, there's that it was it was just one of the many examples of the connection between the school and the community. It was an exam ample of the pride that the community had in the success of the athletic program, not just in wins and losses, but how they represented the community, wherever they, wherever they went. It was an example of the value that the community placed on athletics that it was not just, it wasn't just that we won games and won championships, which Fairport has a rich tradition of doing it. But it was, again, this is important. And we talk about education based athletics. I was lucky enough to work in and still live in a community that values athletics, not just for wins and losses, but for what it contributes to the community, the impact that it has on kids, I've had superintendents and Board of Education's that supported that communities that came out and pass budgets that supported that. So that was just sort of a, an example of that. And, I mean, I was lucky enough to be the emcee for 20 of those, and the energy and the excitement. And my first one of those was 26 years ago, and I can remember vividly, like it was just yesterday, what it felt like to be standing in front. I mean, I was like, Whoa, what's going on here? I mean, that was something that I had never experienced before. So that it is that's a that's a very special thing. And I think that's, and again, people will say these are corny things, but you know, I'm okay with corny stuff that our community feels. But we talk a lot about Fairport family, in Fairport, that's an example of it. And it also was an example where you could bring the entire community, you got people, you got little kids who were coming in strollers, we didn't even know what was going on. You got people who were athletes and coaches currently. And then you had people, 90 years old, showing up at these things. So it was, it was all generations, all ages coming together. And really being an example of once a raider, always a raider, it was people who were going to be people who were and people who have been and they were all there together. And it was just it's an amazing event. Amazing. Well, and I really liked how you talked about that. Because it Jim has been a little bit modest because his evolution of it his his next he'd taken it to another level. And it was not to say that it wasn't at a high level before but it definitely raised to a level because I have to say the first time that I participated in that same thing, I had the same reaction. And as it were bringing the team in and I'm looking around, and easily how many KAPOW 1000 Couple 1000 people there. And this was it was, and people were into it. And and that idea of spirit and family. And this is part of what we're about. And again, it wasn't about wins and losses, it was about being together, celebrating the good of what of what the community had to offer. And I think sometimes you know that that gets lost when people see the athletic six, you know, the championships and the other success. I don't think people always understood that. It really was about that bigger sense of family that drove so much of that. So I really, I really liked how that answered that and bringing that to and connecting to the philosophy and stuff. So as I said at the top, one of the first things that I one of the first news articles I looked at, when I started the podcast, it was actually an article that was on CBS News or something. And they were talking about the decline in referees for not just high school sports, but leagues and all kinds of things. What do you see, I mean, you know, you're, you're in tune with the sporting community, you've got your own children, we're in sports, you're still wired with all of these different folks that have athletic backgrounds and things. What do you see is the biggest challenge to sports today? And how is how is sports? How have sports changed and evolved over the say the past 30 years? Well, I am still actively involved. I'm I'm still a non voting member of the section five executive committee. So I still am actively involved in that. But I also know that I retired six years ago, and I am not an active athletic director. And so one of the things I like to think I'm smart enough to know, is what I don't know. So yep, there's been a lot of changes. I'm not so sure I'm the right person to answer and really identify what the significant changes are. Over the my six years that I've been retired, but I know when I sit F at section five meetings, and I listen to some of the things that the issues that our athletic administrators and school districts are grappling with and trying to answer and provide, again, a positive athletic experience for kids are significantly different than what I mean. So to go back and talk about what's what's changed over 30 years, I mean, you don't have to go back more than again, five years to figure out I mean, and in this pandemic, that we have worked through. And again, I will, I will say, on behalf of the athletic directors, the section five people, Section five, was the only the only section across New York state that has continued to run all of it sectional championships. Once Once the state said that sports could be resumed, they were the first and the only to run, whether they were modified in some way, but sectional championships in all sports. Throughout this entire pandemic, they've done it and dealt with amazing challenges that they've had to deal with. And God bless all those people who are involved in it. I mean, there are just challenges that you would just never think that you would have to have to deal with. But you know, that back to the quote, I mean, there are certain things that I think people can be aware of. And I think I certainly am aware of that, you know, when you talk about, it's tough to find officials, there's official shortages, there's coaching, shortages, one of the biggest shortages that has impacted athletics, and all school programs is bus driver shortages, through within the pandemic, I mean, you got to have the officials to run the game, you got to have the buses first to get people to the game. So there's there are challenges that are out there. And the expectations that are placed on officials, the expectations that are placed on our coaches nowadays are, again, I I have three daughters, all three of them have coached in high school sports, one still continues to coach just the the expectations of them in season, out of season, sports related and non sport related, we go back to education based athletics and teaching life lessons. While those lessons don't just get taught in the two hour practice or the two hour game, but you know, your the things that you're writing on the bus, the phone calls that parents make, or the meetings and conversations that coaches have with kids after during practice, on weekends, at night, receiving texts, I had that Baba, whatever else, or there's there's huge personal challenges. And one of the big issues that is out there right now, in all areas of our society is the mental health issues. And those challenges. You know, the kids who are dealing with mental health issues in school, they don't just stop as they walk out the door. And then they come out onto the practice field or the game field. And they're a whole different person. Those things carry over out there and how they interact with their teammates and how they deal with the stress of whether they performed well or they didn't perform well. What's my coach gonna say? What are my teammates thinking? What are my mom and dad gonna say, when I get home? You know, just all those different things are our challenges. Other challenges that I think are out there that I think are significant right now, I think have to do with fan behavior and security. When people talk about good sportsmanship. You could put 100 people in a room and ask them what good sportsmanship meant and you'd get 100 different answers of what good sportsmanship is, you go from one community to another what's acceptable in one gymnasium or whatever? What culture accepts this is just like being in different houses, what is okay in some person's house and what's another might not be the same thing. So behavior, I mean, security at games, you know, now escorting referees out dealing with issues that go on in the stands up one of the things that we have seen, and again, I shouldn't say week, because I'm not the ones who are there every day. But I think people in schools are seeing now that once people were at home, being taught from home, not having sports, not having those events not hit once we had events, then the fans couldn't come, you know, people are all relearning how to interact and how to behave at certain things. You know, again, I saw somebody put out something one time about after the pandemic, you know, what impact what was the last time certain grade levels of kids were had a normal school year? You know, let's talk about high school kids. The last time a freshman in high school, when we finally came back to school had had regular normal year of high school I was when they were in sixth grade. So many say. So they didn't have that progression. The seniors in a building, who are supposed to be the leaders of a building leaders of a team, the last normal school year they had was they when they were a freshman, and in my school district, Fairport, they wouldn't even have been in the high school, the last time they had a normals, so how they interact with each other how they behaved, that's a that's a real challenge. For people. Budgets are a challenge, they always are. And, you know, the, the expectations that are there between conflicts that are there between travel teams, AAU teams, and school teams, specialization in sport is is an issue. So there are, there's always been challenges, they just change over time. And, you know, if you're an athletic director, I guess anything in in education right now, but I always believed that as an a certain personality, you gotta have a stamp, you have to have a certain personality to be an athletic director, you know, there are people who are really, you know, proactive, and they've got their list, and we're gonna, I'm being proactive and thinking ahead is, is great, I applaud anybody, and I like to think I could do it a little bit. But if you're not able to be comfortable in a reactionary mode, then you're really not going to survive as an athletic director, because there's just, there's so much that is out of your control that you need to plan ahead and think ahead. And the more you plan ahead and think ahead, maybe helps you react more. So you would you need to be able to be reactionary, because you're a fireman, you're putting a firework person, you're putting out fires all day long, because you never know what can happen anywhere. Well, even just weather. I mean, you may have a turf field, but if there's lightning, now you're pushing everything back. You know, maybe it's a 20 minute delay if there was one flash, but maybe it's a two hour delay, and where do all those people go? And so this is what's right, spent months putting this schedule together. And if that's going to blow your mind that it just went out the window because of us bad weather day. You're you're not going to last very long, because that's that's an everyday occurrence. Some springs? Yeah, absolutely. And I think you said, you said a lot of things in there. And two of the things I want to focus on for a second was one was that notion of relearning social interactions. It's been interesting to watch as we go to festivals and things like that, you know, some people are still a little tentative, even as we gather in these large groups again, and relearning how to, you know, wait in line and all those little things that, hey, we've been six feet apart at a minimum. And for a while, there we were, you didn't see people period, and being able to interact with them. The other thing that I think you mentioned, and it's actually a great segue, is the challenge between the expectation say, on a travel League, or an AAU team vert, and, and again, much like you, I, I still talk to people I'm not, you know, in the thick of it like I used to be. But talking to folks, and this was the case, even in the last few years, as I was in my roles as principal in the two different districts, the proliferation of travel leagues and a you leagues. How do you see their impact on what we call school sports, because I had a take on it. But again, knowing you've been in the midst of it, and those leagues were around when, when we were both still doing what we did, what would you say those takes and is it positive, negative, or neutral, or the one thing I would say about it is I that I would disagree with people who, as soon as the topic of AAU and travel teams come up, they immediately spin to all the negatives. I'll talk about some of those. But you know, there are positives to that. And it's like, it's like anything else in life, you're, you know, if you go too far, either way, on a good, something that's really good. If you go way too far, and something is really good, it becomes bad, you know, your greatest strength can be your greatest weakness, depending on which way it happens to fall. You know, there's a lot of positive things and, you know, travel things. It's, you know, it's many times for some kids higher level competition, it it advances them. And as you know, one of the things that I certainly was expecting out of my coaches, and the coaches we're expecting out of their kids, and ultimately, if you're expecting it out of the kids, you're expecting it out of their parents is, what are you going to do in the offseason to move yourself forward? Every coach that goes out of champions aren't made during the season? They're made in the offseason, okay, if they're made in the offseason, one of the ways that people can move themselves forward is with travel teams, AAU, higher level competition, different coaching It's good for coaches and parents to hear different perspectives from people on how to achieve something, different types of training. It's great where kids from different school districts come together to play with each other so that hopefully, when they are competing in school sports, they can interact and talk and maybe know a little bit that they're not as bad as I thought they were, you know, so there's, there's a lot of positives and for some communities are some areas where they don't have maybe even the sport in their school, it provides them an opportunity to play a sport that they might want to do. So those are a lot of positives. On the negative side of it, is, I think, many times those things can cause or lead to specialization in sport. And I think that pressure comes from many times those, those travel AAU coaches saying, Hey, if you're gonna make it to the next level, you've got to really commit to that. So now you're stealing time from, you know, a two sport athlete or a three sport athlete, they become a one sport athlete, I think that's misinformation, because if you were to listen to most college coaches, they're gonna say they want multi sport athletes, not single sport athletes. So specialization, I think those things all can also have a tendency not all have a tendency to lead to a me first mentality, I gotta get mine, because that's where I'm going to get seen. And then when you come back to your school program, that's not the same philosophy. Again, it can lead to a negative if kids say, Well, my travel coach says this, well, you're playing for me now. And this is the way we're going to run this. Sometimes people play different positions in their travel team, because that team is made up of a different group of skills or whatever. And then when you come back to the school team, I need you to play this position, well, I don't play that position. Well, on this team, you do play this deposition, or you're not really going to, you want to get on the field. And there can be conflicting schedules, where, you know, I have a travel tournament, or this is when our game is or this is what I practices. Now, he causes an issue for, you know, between those two groups. You know, when we're in schools, I know, as a principal, you had to deal with this a million times as the ad, I always had to, you know, when there were conflicts between school programs, it was our job as a school to try to resolve conflicts, because you never wanted to put kids and families in the middle of something. That's not the way travel teams see it, they see it as this is what we are expecting, this is what you need to do, you need to change your game. And then parents feel that way too. Because understandably, and sometimes I don't agree with it, but I can understand it, they paid good money, a lot of money to do that, how come when I pay my taxes, you won't change the game to fit my kids needs. So it causes conflicts. And I think sometimes you talked about realistic expectations, that sometimes is is a major issue from it, too. I play on this travel team in the summer, and my son or daughter was the MVP, they were the high score or data data, then they come back to their school team. And maybe they don't have that same expectation, they don't have that same result, they don't have the same expectations. And it's hard for people to understand that if you again, if you don't go back to the people skills and the communication and being able to outline those things. So I can see very strong positives for it. But I also can see some major issues that come from and and kind of be negatives for coaches and our programs and athletic directors. Well, one of the reasons I'm so glad that Jim was able to come in and be on here today is and I have to admit, I'm one of those folks that have largely looked at some of the travel leagues and the AU experiences and sort of a negative light. And, and what Jim has done so well is put that balance out there. And the way he said that, you know, too much chocolate can be bad, you know, little chocolate and the right kind of chocolate is good for you. And and I think that's one of those things that the expectation of what is it that we're all getting out of this and that conflict of schedules, you know, you and I have talked about this, you know, we give kids a lot of non choices, whereas, you know, we're expecting them or a family to choose between a or b and nobody wants to move well my thing my my league, or my team is more important than this and that and I think you really hit that well because that seems to be a stressor for folks. And but again, it's hard to negate all those positives as well. But we go back to teaching life lessons and modeling for people and and why walking the walk, not just talking the talk. You know, you've heard coaches say it before, you know, you got to have your priorities straight, it's it's family, it's school, then it's athletics. But when it comes time to put those priorities into practice it, you know, it's like, What do you mean? Do you have to go to this family activity? Same thing is true, I think when it comes to, you know, conflicts that arise between travel a you and school sports, how can you help? Not put them in the middle? How can you flex a little bit? How can you get what you need, as well as to give them what they need, without sending a message to everybody else that I'm going to show favoritism here for that. But the the problem that and I'll selfishly say that I felt over the course of my career, and I still think exists is, as educators in education based athletic program, we're looking at it like that, like, okay, how can I how can I help this situation? But when I look to the other side, how are you going to help out, they're not willing to do that, because their program is more important. And that message, many times gets conveyed to parents and kids, and parents, and kids then start to falsely believe that that program is more important than the school based program. And I, I see that as, as a negative, I see that as a, as an issue that causes other issues to come along. Oh, for sure. And when we start pitting programs against each other, whether it's internally or externally, nobody wins. Nobody wins. Because we're all trying to get and this was a conversation we had a lot at Honeywell, a much smaller population, we have the same pool of kids to choose from, let's work this out. So that, you know, you mentioned music earlier, so that that student can be a part of the musical or the band or the you know, the orchestra, and be a three sport athlete, and be in a club. And again, sometimes you know that pick your priorities, they become kind of a false choice, that isn't really much of a choice at the end of the day. But again, sometimes that list life lesson ends up being sometimes a decision has to be made. And you have to make that decision, which one is more important to you. And if you make this choice, then you need to understand there is a consequence. And that's you, there's that, for every action, there's an equal and opposite reaction, then, you know, you'd make this decision, I as a coach have to make this decision. Okay, but you don't want me to make that decision. You just want everything to go your direction. So that's, it makes for very interesting and challenging conversations and can lead to some very hard feelings. Absolutely. And that is also a good caveat to that is that, yes, you can be involved with it all. But you may not be able to, quote, do it all, you know, you may not be able to be a starter on that team, if you're also tied up with something else. And that's helping people navigate that is so much what you know what we try to do and try to help folks as they're, as they're going through those how to help them navigate that. Speaking of that, whether it's sports or extracurriculars and and I have to say this is probably a topic. I mean, we you and I had to talk sometimes about discipline with particular athletes for mistakes that they made. And you know what that looked like in terms of impacting them. But we didn't necessarily talk a lot about eligibility, I think we both were fortunate, at least in terms of the athletes that I had to coach at the time. And even as an assistant principal, I didn't have many athletes that under my part of the alphabet that also necessarily were in academic trouble for whatever reason they they but I know in a lot of districts, this is something that can become a tangle, you know, eligibility policies, and whether they belong with sports or anything extracurricular. What's your take or philosophy on those I know that's something that often draws a lot of passion out on both sides of that argument about what that should look like. I believe strongly in those standards and expectations. I really like school districts. The ones I worked in, never use this phrase, but I really liked school districts who do, they don't call it extracurricular activities. They call it co curricular activities. Because again, if we're talking about education based athletics or a musical program or you know a robot extremer those are, you know, supplements additions, and they go along with the program. So I like that phrase co curricular, I believe the standards for eligibility, there should be things that have to do with academic standards, expectations. And that varies from school district to school district, I've been around. Some of them are like, seriously, that's a standard, it's like, okay, and then there are some looks like, wow, that's, I think off the charts, too. I think there should be behavioral expectations and standards. And then I think there should be some type of health and safety types of expectations. That the, I always tried to, again, I know it's semantics, but I always try not to think of it as punitive, or that it was discipline, it was, when you start the season, here are the expectations that are laid out for it, you sign off on it, your parents sign off on it, everybody knows how these are the rules of the game. And if you don't live up to the expectations, here is the accountability that you have. And unless you really violate something significant, any of the things that we're going to do, we're not going to immediately give you a you're done type of consequence, we're going to say, okay, especially academically, I was like, okay, and people, I sort of gotten arguments about this, I said, you, you really think this is bad, we're a school. And we've got our policy was, if you had two F's, you you went on probation wasn't mean you're off, you're on, we're gonna monitor you. We're basically we're saying, your academic performance doesn't meet our standards, you've got a problem here, you need to do something about it. And over the period of a two week period of time, we would monitor it, and they would give us updates from the teachers about how they were doing. And if they weren't living up to the standards or weren't meeting, okay, we've told you, we gave you a chance. And sometimes that, in my opinion, it isn't just about that you all go all of a sudden go from an F to now you have a passing grade, it has to do sometimes a kid has dug such a deep hole that there's no way. But the teacher is saying he or she has done everything they can up to this point, I'll give I'm saying that he shouldn't be able or she shouldn't be able to participate again. And then we continue to monitor when you have, you know, academic drug and alcohol policies or AOL, alcohol and other drugs. I think there is again, a health component in there as well. It shouldn't be that if you violate the rule, you're done. There's a consequence where you might have to be removed from the team and participation. But we're not kicking you to the curb, we want to help you, we've identified either an issue, that issue might be a dependency issue, or that issue might be just a poor decision making issue. Either way, there's an issue that you said you weren't going to do this. And then you did it. And we said, if you do it, that here's the consequence. Okay, that happened. Now we're going to try to help you get back. We're going to, I think the the the newer phrase now in schools that when I was working in a school this year, for an extended period of time, I had to learn a little bit more about, again, new to me, restorative practices. And I guess I was doing restorative practices before, but I didn't realize it about, you know, when a kid got suspended from a team for a drug and alcohol violation, how did you bring that student back so that they could come back as part of the team and be welcomed back? It wasn't like they were, you know, the scarlet letter that and I didn't, there wasn't a phrase for it at that particular time. But now I see that more as restorative practices. The Bob clerk, the Fairport High School Principal really did help me understand what was going on with that this year. So that was that was helpful. And I think, certainly behavioral expectations about how you should behave as a student in the school as citizen in your community, you know, you need to live up to certain standards. So I believe in those, I believe they should not be punitive in nature, but they should be when we're dealing with kids, we identify either errors mistakes, short, fallings, okay, you've made a mistake. We'll call it a mistake. This time, we'll try to build it forward. Many times, almost every time that I had a conversation with a student and the parent sitting there with me, that we all make mistakes. I'm a lot older than you. I've made my fair share, and I continue to make them but I try not make to make the same mistake twice. Okay, we're identifying this as a mistake. Shame on you. We'll help you with it. You come back. You make the same mistake. Now. It's like, okay, you make the same mistake. After a while people can't keep saying Good Kid, poor choice, they start to say, not really a good, good kid. And that's the reality of it. So we're giving you the chance to show people that you really are the good kid that just made a poor choice. And I think that ties in with everything that we've been talking about in terms of that bigger philosophy, life lessons, you make mistakes, but you correct them. And I thought something that you said there, we don't kick people to the curb. And whether you call it restorative practices or helping someone out, or however you phrase it in terms of bringing that student back, or that student athlete back into the fold, because one of the things that used to make me a little crazy, as an administrator, you know, someone would want, there was always someone when it came to an academic situation to seem like they just wanted to drop the hammer. And the conversation I would often have with them is is well, this is a structured piece to their day. So this is a person that might be struggling already. And we're going to take some of that structure out of their day, something you know, we're another adult is keeping an eye on them, and teat trying to teach them those good life lessons. And we're just going to say, Nope, you're out. And that was some of those conversations were struggles. But I also get the idea that, hey, we've given you a second, sometimes even a third chance. Fourth, fifth. And maybe now, you know, you, you we do have to, again, for health and safety reasons, not have you participate any longer, unfortunately, but the reality of it is sometimes we're not just teaching those life lessons to the student involved. Sometimes we're teaching that life lesson to the adults, whether it be maybe the parent who isn't supportive, that we should be following through on what we said we were going to do. Or sometimes it's the coach and or teacher who is expecting something more significant, when that's not how we handle situations. And one of those life lessons that I think lots of people should pay a little bit more attention to is that simple golden rule, treat people like you'd like to be treated, or what a lot of times I would say to teachers or coaches was treat people like you like would like your child to be treated? What would what would you want me to be doing, if it were you and your son or daughter sitting across from me and I had to deal with this similar situation. Because I would always say to try to say that to parents as well, in a blink of an eye, it could be me sitting on the other side of this conversation. This isn't a value judgment. This is this is the situation that we're in, it's not about you being a good parent, or a bad parent, or your son or daughter being a good kid or a bad kid. Here's the situation, here's the choice that they made. Here's the consequence that we have in place, let's work together to make it better. You know, so it's parents need to feel good about themselves, or feel comfortable with themselves and coaches, as well that, you know, you have to be able to live up to the expectations that you have for kids. Now they are kids. If kids had all the answers to all the questions, they wouldn't need parents, they wouldn't need teachers, they wouldn't need administrators. So expect that. So true. It's so true. And that's actually a great segue into the next thing I wanted to ask you, which is, as parents, the first sports experience for many parents, our local community sports, the local little Little League, the local soccer league, whatever it might be. And then as they transition, say, sometimes it's an elementary school, there are some elementary programs that are tied to the bigger sports programs. But sometimes that first experience might be maybe in a modified setting. When they make that transition, what advice would you give parents in terms of alright, you were this was this was one way that sports looked in these community sports. And as you transition, say, from modified and JV and varsity, you know, What should parents expect that might be different? And how can they maybe be better prepared for that experience? I think I think they should ask some questions. And I think initially, they shouldn't be asking questions about all the logistical details that need to be taken place so that your son or daughter is eligible to participate. Because just like all those community programs, there was a deadline for registration there wasn't there's all sorts of stuff that takes place in that organization. Now in this organization, there might be some new ones. There might be some similar ones. When what paperwork do I need to fill out? What physical do I need to have? When does the season start? How many days a week do they practice? When are games when are practices? Where do they practice? How do they get transported because some parents will think the buses are going to bring them home at night. That's, you know, so what is it that is your expectation so that when it comes time, your son or daughter is ready and eligible to participate? I really think at that particular time after the parents have taken care of all that work, your job as a parent is to support your son or daughter, support their team, support their coach, be a booster for your son or daughter be a booster for your team be a booster for that coach, sit back and enjoy the experience. That's your job. As a parent, you don't No longer do you have to coach No longer do you have to referee those are what the school district is paying a certificated coach to do, and paying trained officials to do. Your job is to come and enjoy and support have camaraderie on the sidelines with other parents who are dealing with the same issues in their life. I always felt as a parent, because I stood on those same sidelines, it was like a therapy group, everybody was going through the same experience their kids were all we're doing is so it was good. It was a social group, it was a way to communicate with one another. And then when the practice is done, or the game is done, you should be trying to either keep the smile on your son or daughter's face, or put the smile on your son or his daughters. It should not be a postgame analysis of your playing time coaching decisions refereeing that, you know, you should be promoting, and that that's what I think parents should do. It's not an easy thing to do. Because sometimes we get caught up in the emotions of of the game and somebody did something that was obviously wrong and official made a really poor call. It happens. It happens. But what do I think parents should do? They should be supporting their kids, they should be supporting the coach, they should be supporting the team. I think a lot of times, you know, kids come home from a game or practice having a good understanding of who they are, and what their role is on the team, they have a better understanding of it than most times parents really do. And sometimes if their son or daughter hasn't gotten the playing time that they thought they should get, or they don't receive the accolade that they get, you know, kid comes home and they they played five minutes in the game. You know, talk about the five minutes that they played in the game. And while you That was great, what you did, you really worked hard and great play, I really saw the improvement from the last time you played. But there are a significant number of parents who instead of talking about the five minutes that they did play, they want to talk about the 35 minutes that they didn't, and the coaching decisions that were made and all the other stuff so that instead of the kid feeling good about what they did is like Oh, wow. Like now my parent is I wanted to play what every kid wants to play more sure. Everybody wants to play more if they didn't, and that's they're really not very competitive. But I want to play more to and now geez, I'm not happy with myself. Now my parents aren't happy with me either. You know, and, you know, kid comes home and they got second team all county did that great. No, you should have been first team all county. You know. So that's what I think a parent should do. And it is not easy. And I sit I sit here talking to this microphone. And I had those conversations with a mirror many times. Because again, I go back to my philosophy, you have to model your behavior. I'm a parent, too. I had kids who played on teams to everybody thinks my kids always got to play. No, they didn't. And did I have issues? Yes, I did. I had issues with the athletic director. My wife had issues with the athletic director who was me. And so you know that I understand the challenges. So I don't just say this willy nilly, and like, Oh, everybody should be just happy. You know, you might be frustrated, I'm not saying you won't get frustrated. But how you show that or don't show that to your son or daughter, I think is important. But the real job of a parent is to take care of all the stuff that needs to be taken care of so that your son or daughter can go do what they want them to do and, you know, enjoy what they're enjoying. And as well, you know, and when they come home sometimes maybe they're not enjoying it as much as they want to, you know, you're talking to them about you know, I understand you might not maybe this isn't what you want to continue to do. You got to finish the season. We don't quit at the end of the season. If you decide I've said that to lots of kids to at the end of the season. If you say this really isn't for me, I'm actually I'm gonna go try another sport. Great. That's what I want you to do. I like sports, but this one isn't the one I want. That's good. I'm okay with that. But a parent needs to, you know, to push along and support them. We can get through this Come on make the best There's lots of things that you can learn from this, that might not be what we expect it to learn, but we're going to get something positive out of this. That's, that's tough parenting. And God bless the parents who can do that. And I know they're, I was fortunate to deal with lots of them, lots of them, who were really good parents who they might not have been happy. But they made it a good positive learning experience for their kids. And what I would add to that, and I don't know if you experienced this, after your last daughter graduated, but having my two graduate at the same time, and taking care of all those logistics and meats, and invitationals. And all of a sudden, when that stops, you know, at first you're like, Oh, I got some time back. But all of a sudden, you're like, boy, that was really time well spent, not only for what, you know, our kids went through and the experiences that they got out of that, but also being on the sidelines with parents having those conversations. And really, you know, there's a camaraderie that exists among those parents. And that's something that if you foster that, again, it helps that broader team family concept. And really, and I think what I would, the other thing that I would add to it is, enjoy it while it's there, because it is gone in the blink of an eye. And, you know, I my son, I don't know if he listened to the podcast or not, I honestly thought my son was going to continue with his running career. And he made a decision not to and I had to support that. And that's something where, you know, you think this is going to go on forever, and it's over before you know it, you blink, and suddenly they've graduated. And there's no longer meats or games or anything else to go to. And when you make the most out of it and connect with those families, it really makes everybody's experience a lot better for sure. Well, this time has gone amazingly well in and I knew it would and gone fast. And I definitely would love to have you back. But I've got one last question that I wanted to ask we are there. So you talked about your path? And if someone is thinking of becoming an athletic director, what how would you I mean, you talked about talking into the mirror with these conversations and some of those other preparations they did? How what would you tell someone that is looking to get into again, I think it's one of the toughest administrative roles in schools today. What would you tell them in terms of preparing for that role, and, and being, you know, in a position to be successful, hey, we're all going to make mistakes, and that comes with any job that you're going to do firsthand. But how can they, you know, prepare themselves, you're not going to have all the answers, etc, but put themselves in the best spot to be successful? Well, the first thing I think, with with anything, I always seem to go back to these really basic things. But this is important. You know, if you're, if you want to be an athletic director, depends on what type of athletic director you want to be what type of position that you are looking for, if you would like to be in a position in, say, a large suburban school district, or even a small suburban school district or a smaller school, those positions might be called the director of health, physical education and athletics. And to fill that position, you need to have certain certifications. So if you're a, you know, I'm a technology teacher, and I want to get into athletic administration. If you're in that type of a school district, then you probably got some work to do to get certain types of certifications, you know, you can do online courses for Phys. You know, if I was in a smaller rural community, where the athletic director might actually be a business teacher who gets released time for two periods, or whatever, you know, then that's a different scenario. So that's, you know, so making sure you understand what is required from to be even eligible, just like I told parents to make sure they get all their paperwork done. You got to find out what you have to get done to be considered for these jobs. If you have all of those things, and that's what you want to do. I think you should talk to people who have been in that position. You should really try to do some type of you know, every every administrative certification has an internship and if that's where your interest lies, I try to intern part of my time with an athletic administrator to see and live that world because it's different All administrative positions in schools today are challenging our hard work, you take a high level of commitment, I would never say anything different. But the challenge is the level of commitment the time, it's, it's not harder. It's not more difficult. But it's significantly different when you're talking about an athletic administrator, you know, with more and more communities having lights on their fields, there's more and more night events. There's all sorts of weekend events, there's all sorts, some of the best days of the years for sports teams to be able to get their games in is on school holidays and breaks, where other people might be working, partially working, but making decisions about whether they work or not. Those are, you can be assured you're going to be working on those. So there's, there's a level of commitment that's different than it is in other administrative positions. I have said, forever, that, and other administrators will say the same, but it's, again, has to be true. And it being an athletic administrator, and athletic director is not a job. It's a lifestyle. And you choose to live that lifestyle as the work that you do. It takes time away from your family, there's a balancing act between how much time you give to other people's children and how much time you give. Every school administrator deals with that. But it's different for an athletic administrator. It's a lifestyle that hopefully your family is interested in being not just supportive of, but actively involved with where they will go with you attend games. I mean, some of the most memorable experiences that I have are times that I spent with our daughters and my wife at games. I know, there was a weekend, years ago that my wife and I it was the state tournament in the fall and we had three Fairport teams and state championships and in a matter of two days, we drove we drove 1100 miles over New York State, and saw every minute of every game between Syracuse Glens Falls, and downstate New York, Middletown, whatever, you know, we drove all over and saw it all. And, again, to this day, great memories. So those are things that it's a lifestyle, and you need to be able to commit to that. And again, it's a job that, again, that not that other administrative positions, don't have it. But when you're an athletic director, in almost any community that I know of, it is not just a school role. It's a community role you interact with people, in and outside of the school, within your community. And in and outside of the school outside of your community, you're dealing with people coming to you all the time from outside different, it's a different level of interaction with with people. And I will go back to what you said, you you hit, we probably have this conversation, I agree with you to unique positions. In school district, our special education director and an athletic director, you deal with emotionally charged people and people who have had to, for the majority of their life, advocate strongly for benefits or improvements for their or advancements for their for their children. So it's a unique continual clientele of people that you do is that those aren't few and far between those are regular conversations and interaction. So great job. I mean, I made a I made a lifetime of it, and I still choose to be involved with it. Me because it, it gave me so much it gave my kids and my wife, I, I would have never expected any one of my daughters to be a coach. All three of them ended up coaching and that was like, wow, I was and they're good at it. They understand the things that we've talked about, and I was proud of them for the way they did it. But, you know, I guess that's me sort of giving back and paying it forward a little bit, but, and people did that for me. You know, I went into this, you know, emulating somebody that was my middle school physical education teacher and coach and he was an athletic trainer. He ended up being an athletic director who I ended up working with in Monroe County. It was mean that's what I envisioned for myself. He was it and I followed in his foot and, you know, I hope others look at sort of the things that I've done and I can help and mentor and give advice to others who want to come along so well and I will say to anyone out there and if you do get the opportunity to work with Jim, really on anything, take up that opportunity, because you're going to learn a lot, not just about whatever it is that you're you're trying to understand or get better at, but just life. And there were a couple of things that you said. And the one that struck me probably the most is, it is a lifestyle. And I think that's one of the things that makes it unique. And as you were saying it, I remember very distinctly this one time, we were, it was some dance or something, we were having a tie school. And for whatever reason, I think we were trying to put partitions up or something in the gym. And the only person that we could think to call was Jim Zumbo, to help us get the because, and it was a Saturday night, and it was one of the probably the few Saturday nights that Jim had, and God knows how long and you know, we were, we were calling and helping, you know, hoping he could help us out. And, and sure enough, he did. And we, you know, save the day, and he got back to his weekend. But it is a lifestyle. And the other thing that you said was that that community based, and I remember, you know, hearing in a particular establishment conversations, and I think, you know, it's hard sometimes when you hear conversations about coaches and teachers and things like that, and and people are going to turn to the athletic director, well, you know, what's going on with this team or that team are, you know, are just, you know, trying to get an understanding of what is it that we're about in terms of what we're doing with athletics or where, where our programs going, and things like that. And so, and it is something that you're on the spot in ways and people understand and want to talk about sports? More, so I can probably count on one hand. You know, people asking me serious questions about maybe the chemistry results on the regents exams, I can probably pull up a lot more conversations, even when I, you know, as the executive principal of Western See, I didn't have a lot to do with athletics directly. But I still had parents that wanted to talk to me about what was happening with sports, and they wanted to bend someone else's ear on that. Because again, it's there's a passion, there's an emotionality to it, that is just different. And like Jim's choice of words unique, where people definitely feel that passion, and they want to see what's best. And sometimes, again, the expectation and the reality don't always coincide. Jim, I knew this time would go fast. I really hope I can have you back. Because I think your experience also, I mean, we talked a lot about athletics. But some of the conversations we had around health and phys ed instruction, I think would also be really beneficial if I could sneak another time with the end. And I'd be happy to buy I appreciate the positive comments that you made about health and Phys. Ed, I'm very, very proud of the health and physical education programs that Fairport had in place. But one of the challenges that I would say that somebody who's in this type of a position Director of Health, Physical Education, athletics is you can't do all that you probably should, for all that need the help. And I sadly, for me, I would say that one of the shortcomings that I had was that I maybe did not service, my health and physical education teachers as as well, because they did a great job. And we have great programs, but it has more to do with them that hadn't seen with me. And that's, you know, that's a really interesting take. Because, again, from I'd say, not really the outside, but somewhat the outside because they weren't directly my programs when I was working with you. I mean, I never felt like they were getting shorter. I think I understand what you're saying. But it you know, I think there was the guidance was there if, you know, we maybe didn't feel like it was because I think there was something there. And if and if nothing else, and again, and I this is part of the reason I want to have you back is I remember very distinctly a conversation we had and we were hiring someone in phys ed, and I was on the hiring committee with you. And I think that's a conversation in and of itself that's worth diving into, because it really shaped what I looked for, and I'll be honest, was fortunate to have across three different districts in phys ed, in terms of approach and philosophy and people that understand that approach. And again, I don't want to get too far into it. But those life lessons that can be learned from a solid phys ed education, you know, it's not necessarily building up to get someone onto a sports team. It's how can you be healthy throughout the course of your life. And with that, I'm going to wrap us up because I could sit here and talk with Jim. And he's probably trying to get back in fact, and my long winded and this I could keep going. But, Jim, this is fantastic time. I really appreciate it. Taking time out of your schedule to do this. And please say hello to everybody in your life in the small you know, in the smaller circle, but also the larger Fairport family that you might run into. Please give my best to everybody. And I want to thank everyone for taking the time to spend a little time with us on education matters New York. Again, I'm Wayne Ackles. Your host this is a fat Wolverine productions and take care and we will see you again in a week or so.